Lawyer Ricardo Escobar, in an interview with Ex-Ante, expresses his disappointment with the audio leaks, emphasizing that they reflect the presence of bad practices that unfortunately have taken root in Chilean society. He says we must reject this type of inappropriate behavior, but at the same time he emphasizes the importance of responding as a society by modernizing the state and focusing on more effective management to prevent this type of behavior.

-How did you feel listening to the audio of the two lawyers and the businessman?

-It was very disappointing. In this situation, there are at least three things that should not happen. The first is that there are two lawyers who, when talking to their client, talk about doing illegal things. Lawyers are not there for that. The second is that there is a client ready to participate in a corrupt action, he is ready to pay to obtain an unfair advantage. And thirdly, if it were true that bribes were paid here, or that it was done in the past, it means that just as there was a man willing to pay to get an advantage, there is a civil servant. who is willing to pay a fee for giving you this benefit, for doing something inappropriate.

-What is behind these types of acts that lead respected people to be willing to resort to corruption or get involved in an illicit operation?

-Greed. But it is important to note that in our society the majority of people behave according to the laws. The majority of people stop at red lights, they don’t arrive or pass, but there are some who pass. The vast majority of people, when on the road in a traffic jam, wait for traffic to clear, however, there are scoundrels who go over the shoulder. The majority of people do not request sick leave to go on vacation or simply to rest at home while receiving a salary from the State or private employer, but some do.

This case is a reflection of a larger problem, that of shamelessness, greed taken to the extreme, the desire to take advantage of the system and the certainty that they will not be caught. The guy who goes over the berm here in Germany, he doesn’t do it, if he’s stuck in a block he won’t go over the berm because the police will catch him and, probably, he’ll go to jail.

-Are you saying that the rule of law has been overstepped?

For some time now, Chile has been eroding respect for the law, undermining the rule of law, being very lax in applying the law, but also creating culturally abnormal and validated situations, such as when accusations brought against Transantiago Bus or metro. Because whoever avoids the metro is also stealing from the rest of Chileans. We must, as a society, respond to these situations which are not normal.

This case is a scandalous example, there is no doubt, because of the connotation it has, in which legal professionals are involved who do this. This should never happen. But don’t get lost, it’s bigger than what we see here.

-But don’t you think that when we talk about cases involving large companies, the law in Chile does not work like, for example, in the United States, and that a case like this could even lead to convictions for life ?

-All that has changed. Penalties have become more severe and today we have the Economic Crimes Act, which came into force at the beginning of August. The problem lies in how society reacts to these types of events. In other words, if you go to a Nordic country, no one brags about not paying taxes, because people understand what it means to pay taxes, and those who don’t pay their fair share are looked down upon. There may be scoundrels, but they are very few in number and they are socially rejected. But here, what we saw was that a culture gradually assumed that all this was fine, that it was the “liveliness of the Chilean” passing away. This is what we must fight against.

-As a former director of the Internal Revenue Service, what are your thoughts on the handling of the matter within the institution?

-The Internal Revenue Service, like any public service, has internal summary procedures when such irregularities exist. It is usual that when an investigation is carried out, the person involved in this process is suspended as a precautionary measure, which does not mean that they participated or that they are guilty. Once the investigation is completed, if the person who had nothing to do with what was investigated returns to their position, continues to work as usual, and that is normal. On the contrary, if this person has actually gotten involved, there are very specific sanctions.

What I would like to emphasize is that the institutionality of services works here. It is not extraordinary that officials under investigation are suspended because of this information. We still have little data to give us an idea of ​​what really happened. For example, we don’t know if there was a scam, as Attorney Villalobos’ defense at least suggests. If this is the case, then all SII officials will return to their functions. One of the lessons we must learn, without prejudice to the search for information, is that people cannot be lynched publicly until all the basic information is known.

– Is the current institutional framework of the SII sufficient?

-The Internal Revenue Service works pretty well. It is one of the best services within the state’s public administration. We must take care of it in the way we treat it, without prejudice to the fact that it can be improved, of course.

-Has public confidence not been shaken when we see two lawyers involved, one of whom demonstrates rectitude, and a businessman, who immediately reminds us of several previous cases?

-Of course it is very disappointing that legal professionals would do this, whether it is defrauding their client or preparing a bribe, it is unacceptable. But it is also true that there are doctors who issue thousands of false licenses, that there are civil servants who apply for false licenses in the public sector and who receive the salaries that all Chileans pay them. In the private sector, both in large and small companies, among public and private sector workers, we see that bad practices are installed that are not socially rejected as they should be. Of course, this case is scandalous, but we cannot forget everything else. I do not want to minimize the importance of this matter; on the contrary, it should help us pay attention to all the areas in which we need to improve.

-There was talk of changing the institutionality of the SII, by making it autonomous and equipped with a collegial body. Do you think this helps dispel the doubts that exist today?

– The important thing is how the public sector works. It’s not the director’s problem, it’s the functioning of the State. Canada and New Zealand are two of the countries in which their Internal Revenue Services stand out and, in the first, they have a collegial body and in the second, a director. But we see that both are quality-oriented services towards their customers.

It is unthinkable that Canadian or New Zealand civil servants would go on an illegal strike and not see their salaries withheld, as is the case here all the time. It is unthinkable that people are not valued for their individual merit. In the Chilean public system, civil servants are treated by categories.

So, for example, in a department, be it SII or SAG or any other institution, if out of the 10 people working there, 7 are doing a fantastic job while the other 3 are taking a nap, the department is doing it. will comply and be very well evaluated, and this will lead to the 10 receiving the bonus for achieving its goal. They will not only pay the bonus to the 7 who work and make efforts, but also to the three others who deserved to be made redundant or to see their salaries reduced. This is our problem in the public sector.

-At the time the SII was the spearhead of the modernization of the State. What happened?

-In recent years, the emphasis on public sector productivity has lost its importance. For years there has been no effort to modernize the state and every time a service needs improvement the response has been to hire more people and keep doing the same. We are making the state bigger, but not better.

The problem with the Internal Revenue is not whether it is run by a director or by a collegial body. Both systems have advantages and disadvantages. The problem is that for a long time, the Internal Revenue Service, like the rest of the state, did not focus on modernization, on better management and on better service to the population.

-What should happen to avoid affecting public trust after the audio affair?

-We have to put things in their place. The majority of companies do things right, follow the laws, the majority of workers do things right in the public and private sectors, and there will always be “bad apples” on both sides and these behaviors must be rejected.

The important thing is to learn from these cases and save the behaviors that we really want in Chile. But we must be careful before publicizing trials or lynching institutions. We must let the institutions function. This is why the rule of law exists. We cannot forget the due process to which everyone is entitled. It is slower, it does not have an instant response as some ask on social networks, but that is what distinguishes us as a civilized society from one that is not.

-But a civilized society punishes “bad apples”.

-Absolutely. And they are punished everywhere. We should move forward. The problem is that the enthusiasm for improving lasts until the next scandal, whether in the Department of Agriculture and Livestock, in a bank, in a school or in a northern municipality, like this happened to us four months ago.

The fact is that we do not forget this case and take this opportunity to take care of the biggest problem we have, namely the modernization of the public apparatus. Let’s not fool ourselves into thinking that this problem is solved by replacing the Director of Internal Revenue with three directors. That’s not the problem.

You can also read: How the Audios affair shook the SII and the commission of inquiry which is before the House